Creating Imaginary Backdrops (Innerviews 1993)

SummaryItalic text: In this interview, Allan Holdsworth discusses his music career, particularly focusing on his album "Wardenclyffe Tower." He expresses his dissatisfaction with the album's mixing process, his approach to album titles, and how he visualizes and conveys stories through instrumental music. He talks about his use of the Synthaxe and its challenges, as well as his interest in extending the range of the guitar using baritone guitars. Holdsworth also shares his views on recognition in the music industry, the challenges of being an independent artist, and the role of media and record labels in promoting music.

He talks about his contract with Restless, the possibility of doing a solo album, and the challenges of working with his existing band due to financial constraints. He also touches on his frustration with unauthorized releases and bootlegs of his music and the difficulties in dealing with record companies. The interview delves into his experiences with different bands and musicians, such as Soft Machine, U.K., Tony Williams, and Gong. He expresses his interest in pursuing film work and shares his thoughts on the current state of rock and pop music, as well as fusion trends. The interview also briefly mentions his family, including his children's awareness of his musical career.

Creating imaginary backdrops

by Anil Prasad Interview date: January 15, 1993 © Copyright 1993 by Anil Prasad. All rights reserved.

Update: Anil Prasad has updated his interview from 1993, and published a new version at https://www.innerviews.org/inner/holdsworth.html

In progressive music circles, Allan Holdsworth's name needs no introduction. After all, his musical resume features some of the most distinguished genre-blurring groups and musicians to emerge from the '70s music scene. Soft Machine, Bruford, U.K., Gong and Jean-Luc Ponty are just a few.

As a solo artist, Holdsworth's career has been one of artistic triumph. While commercial success has been elusive, albums such as Metal Fatigue, Atavachron, Sand and Secrets have set high standards for innovation and creativity in a field often dominated by vapid fretboard fireworks.

During the latter half of the '80s, the Synthaxe was the key to Holdsworth's entirely unique sound. The guitar synthesizer enabled him to explore an untold number of textures and colors lacking in the conventional six-string vocabulary.

Holdsworth recently began exploring another radical step in the guitar's evolution. Known as baritone guitars, his new custom axes can be heard on his latest release Wardenclyffe Tower. The title originates from a device created by Nikola Tesla, the inventor of alternating current. The tower was designed to distribute electricity through the surface of the earth and provide free, wireless power for all. The visionary was never able to see his idea materialize because of lack of support and finances.

Ever the perfectionist, it shouldn't surprise long-time fans that Holdsworth has reservations about his current offering. On this note, we begin a candid conversation with this earthy virtuoso.

You're known for being highly critical of your own playing. What do you think of it on Wardenclyffe Tower?

The problem I have with Wardenclyffe Tower is that the album was recorded a long time before it was mixed. It was recorded over a year prior to releasing it and the reason is that we recorded it and the scheduling was such that I could never get to mix it. I started to mix it one time and I wasn't happy with the mixes so I stopped and we went out on the road. I came back and tried it again. I usually go to Front Page [studios] in Costa Mesa and I mixed it there pretty quick. I thought it was going okay, and then when I listened to the mixes I wasn't happy with them, so I didn't release it. I was gonna do it again, but because of the amount of time that had gone by, I started to get really fed up. I was getting very tired of it. So I thought, having played the mixes to my friends and the guys, to release the mixes that I had done at Front Page, which is how the album is now. But I'm not completely happy with the way the mixes are now.

What do you think is wrong with them?

With Secrets, I mixed that album at home and I spent a lot of time on the mixing. It's different when you do it at home—you don't have to watch the clock. So, obviously I can take longer to make decisions.

Why didn't you mix the new album at home?

I decided to go to the studio at that time with Wardenclyffe Tower because I didn't have my home studio set-up working because we had just moved. So, otherwise I would have tried to do it at home again, but I didn't have a set-up going at the house. We moved everything and I lost the set-up I had, so I had to start again. I think the album is what it is. I think it's pretty good. The thing that lets it down for me is just that I would have liked to mix a couple of tracks again—not everything.

You don't sound too enthused at all.

Well, I like some of the music on it. I thought all the guys played really great on it. As I said, the only thing that let it down for me is the mix.

What were you going for when you first conceptualized the album?

I never really have a concept for an album as a whole. Whenever I'm working on a piece of music, I'll just be working on that. I'm never thinking about a concept for an album. I just think about writing tunes and trying to find a balance between the tunes to make up an album. Usually, when I come up with an album title—and this has been true with every album I've ever done—I don't think of it is as a whole. Sonically, and making sure the balance between types of tracks, and the running order—that's important. The titles of the albums have always been related to one piece or one song. I take one piece of music and say "That's a good title, so I'll use that." And then the album ends up being called that. Secrets was the same—just that one track, I liked the title, so I used that. So, it wasn't a concept for the whole record. I balance the pieces of music in a record to make it a whole. I never have an album title based on a concept.

Musically-speaking, did you achieve what you envisioned?

Yeah, pretty much. I think each piece of music turned out the way I wanted them to, except with the way they were mixed, which is very important to me. They weren't so bad that they weren't recognizable. I carried a tape of mixes around that I had, even though I started out saying "Geez, I shouldn't have done that, I should have done this." After I spent time listening to the tape, I got used to it and made the decision not to go back to do it again. I got so used to hearing it as it actually was that I didn't know if it was gonna be worth doing it again. I like to work constantly on something until it's the way I want it and release it and never worry about it again. I'm not very good at working to a deadline, in fact I'm horrible at it—that's what's going on right now, I've got this stuff I'm supposed to do by a certain date. To me, that whole concept doesn't work. They're gonna take as long as they're gonna take. I can't guarantee it. You might just get one thing that sounds really good right away and it's done and you get to another track and you just can't get what you want out it.

Composition-wise, Wardenclyffe Tower strikes me as an extension of Secrets.

I think every album has been an extension of the previous one, or has grown out of the previous one. But I think it's quite different. I think it's a little less aggressive in a way. I'm not sure if that's a good thing or not—it's just the way it turned out you know. [laughs] I'm already working on stuff for the next album. Obviously, the problem with Wardenclyffe Tower is the amount of time between recording it and releasing it. I like to get it so they're fairly quick. Usually, when we start recording it, I work on it until it's mixed and it's out, so there's not a huge difference between when it's recorded and when it comes out. Now that I think about it, that happened on Secrets as well. I got involved in a tour and other projects at the same time, and I wasn't able to finish it when I wanted to. I don't know, it's hard for me to say, it's hard to compare them. They sound different—the music is different. Hopefully, they have something that's the same about them, the thread of evidence of one mind or something, but I don't know.

It seems to have a more spontaneous and live feel than Secrets.

If people perceive that, then that's always a good thing. Even when we end up overdubbing things, I try to make it sound live. Sometimes you can overdub something and it might be correct, but it just might not feel right since it didn't happen at the same time. So, sometimes I'll make it sound like it really belongs there even if it's not exactly what I wanted.

Why did you choose to call the album Wardenclyffe Tower?

It's about this particular tower and Nikola Tesla. I always intrigued when I had the big book with his patents and everything. He seemed to be a guy who was doing things, being really creative and it seemed he wasn't in the right time to be doing what he was doing! [laughs] Although what he did contributed to everyone and everyone benefitted, not many people actually know he was responsible for all the things that he did. When I started working on that track Wardenclyffe Tower, I had this idea of this guy in his workshop. So, when I finished that piece, I thought well, that would be a good title for the whole record.

Are you often inspired to write music that way? Do you need that sort of catalyst?

I set out to write something. I quite often start out with an idea I have and work with that. With Wardenclyffe Tower, that was definitely a concept I had—creating an imaginary backdrop for this guy.

Tell me how you go about representing a story in music without lyrics.

It's only perceived obviously from my own eyes and ears really. I just have to hope that whatever I visualize is somehow transferred to someone else's mind. That's why I've always wanted to be involved in film music. When I see something, I often hear something at the same time. So it's just a matter of putting it together. It's almost as if I'm doing an imaginary film. I think all of my music is kind of like that. They're almost like imaginary film things. Not so much the soloing aspect of it—that goes into another thing, trying to be creative in an improvising way—but the composition aspect comes from the pictures in my head. So, I was thinking about what I know about Nikola Tesla—which isn't that much—and just visualizing something and then just putting the music to the pictures of what I see, and that's what I do usually.

As you said, Tesla contributed to the world as a whole, sold the rights to his inventions for a meager sum and received little recognition. Do you see any parallels between that and your own career?

It's possible, but I wasn't thinking about it like that. I wasn't using it as something where I could say "I'm doing something and no-one is taking any notice." It wasn't like that at all. If it was, it was some sort of a coincidence. I wasn't concerned with myself. I was just trying to write some music around what my imagination was doing with regards to Nikola Tesla.

Steve Hunt [keyboardist] plays a much larger role on Wardenclyffe Tower than on Secrets.

I think it depends how long someone's been around in the band. Also, I was using the Synthaxe a lot more back then, which almost negates the role the keyboard player has. After all, he's gonna be doing something similar with textures. Back then with the Synthaxe, I was able to do that on my own, and that's basically what happened. And this last album, I only used the Synthaxe on two tracks. I didn't use it much.

Why did you decide to abandon it?

There's a number of reasons, but the most important reason is that I was getting to a point where I was going to abandon playing the guitar altogether and only play the Synthaxe. I thought it was closer to what I wanted to do musically, in my head—sonically, the whole thing. With the Synthaxe, I could use it as a wind instrument. I used to use it with a breath controller—I could use it as the wind instrument I had always wanted to play since I was a kid. I didn't have to deal with distortion and shaping a distorted guitar sound into something musical, which is a real challenge. It's been one of the problems I have all of the time with the guitar—I want to make it sound more like a horn. But at the same time, the fact that you have to use any sort of distortion to get sustain is a kind of a catch-22. You have to use something you don't want to use to get something that you want to use. I didn't have any of those problems with the Synthaxe. It was really clear and really easy.

The fact that is has the keys as well as the strings —that was a stroke of genius for me. What I got afraid of is that I tried to keep in contact with them [Synthaxe Inc.] about any future things that they wanted to implement and Ideas that I had about modifications and improvements. The barrier broke down and in the end and right as it is—this moment—they don't exist at all. There's maybe two or three guys on the whole planet that could probably fix one. That got to be a really dangerous position to be in. If I quit guitar and got rid of them all and played only Synthaxe right now, then I'd be in real bad shape right now. And my worst fear came true, because a couple of months ago I sold both of my Synthaxes and thought "Well geez, I just have to get rid of them." And now over the last few weeks I've realized that I really miss them. I hooked up with this guy that bought one he never uses. He inherited some money and spent it on a Synthaxe and he decided he didn't want to use it, so he knew that I played it and he tracked me down and he offered to sell it to me. I borrowed it from him to try it and there were two bad frets on the neck and I called some of the people that used to work at Synthaxe and try to find out what the possibilities of getting this malfunction fixed were and I'm still waiting to hear from one of the tech guys. So you can see, that's a scary situation to be in if that was the only instrument I played!

So, it boils down to a lack of support then?

Yeah and the lack of support simply boils down to the fact that there were so few people playing it that it was a complete disaster for the company. There was no way they could continue to make it. Even though, I still believe and [really passionately] I know it to be true in my heart that it was the only one—the only guitar synthesizer that was ever built that really works for me. It's just that unfortunately it behaves so unlike guitar that they [guitarists in general] don't want to deal with it. They don't want to get past that little threshold you have to jump over to get into it. Most guitarists when they get a synth—well this is a generalization of course—they pick one up immediately and they try to get a synthesizer trying to play a guitar sound which is completely insane to me! I mean, I can't think of anything more ridiculous. The whole idea for me was to get outside the realm of guitar and start doing other stuff. But that might be the thing that's true of guitar players. Guitar players in general are narrow as far as just looking at an instrument. A lot of players don't even listen to other instruments—they get so wrapped up in the guitar. I know that to be true, because of the amount of guitar players that I know that are like that. Sometimes, they don't hear the music, they only hear the sounds. Anyway, so that's where it is with the Synthaxe at the moment, so that's why I stopped using it.

That must be a really frustrating situation for you.

Well, I started working with a new guitar synthesizer controller made by a guy down here named Harvey Starr, and the potential of this one is huge as well! It's a really strange thing. It's a cross between a keyboard and a guitar. You lay it flat like a pedal steel, and it has 12 strings, but they're not really strings at all, they're keys. They're groups of 24 keys times 12, so it looks like a typewriter, but the problem for me is that obviously playing that way is upside down for me, and I've never been able to use my right hand. It's like learning to play a whole new instrument. Whereas the Synthaxe, I fell right into it right away, so I don't think it's going to be a substitution for me—not that it can't be for someone else.

Is going back to regular guitars a limiting thing for you?

Oh yeah, yeah. [really sounding depressed] The way that I could make a note loud and then soft and then loud and then soft is completely impossible with a guitar. Sure, you could use a volume pedal but it's not the sound— it's not the way I want to hear it. If you play a violin and you pull a note and then you can make it soft and add vibrato, take some off and then make it bright again and hard—just one note. It's just the way you can shape notes. You can shape notes on guitar—I've worked really hard at doing that, but it's really limited compared to what I could do on a Synthaxe. The perception from someone else's point of view is probably different, but being the guy that's trying to create the music, I know that instrument works. It really worked for me, so it's kind of sad that it's ended. I'm gonna try all I can to get this one particular Synthaxe going and over a period of the next few years, I might try to see if I can round up a few more used ones. I should never have sold the ones I had—it was a big mistake. I had two and I bought the second one quite a number of years after the first one, just so I would have a spare. Each one had a spare console, because the console had a lot of the memory stuff in there and they failed from time to time, so it was good to have a spare one for each.

How many Synthaxes are out there?

A thousand maybe. Not very many. There's probably that many, but not much more I would think. A lot of studios bought them in the beginning. I've seen them sitting around in places.

Let's talk about "Oneiric Moor." Is that piece indicative of the solo guitar album you want to do next?

Partially. That was just an improvisation with two parts. I just recorded 15 minutes of improvisation. I listened to them and picked one I liked and then I played another part along with it spontaneously and that was that piece. The idea I have for the next album wasn't so much spontaneity, but compositions, and also to use all these big guitars I've got at the moment. I've been experimenting with extending the range of the guitar. I have a little piccolo one and three baritone guitars.

Explain what's special about Baritone guitars for a non-musician.

The difference between a bass guitar and a guitar is that a bass guitar is much smaller for the notes it produces than a guitar for the notes it produces physically. The baritone guitars for me, have an extremely long scale. They're two to four inches longer than the biggest bass guitar. One is a 36-inch scale, the other is a 38-inch scale. It's like if you can imagine a normal guitar and you extend the neck downwards from that note—E, the lowest note. In other words, when you play an E on the baritone guitar, the string will be the same length as it is as on E on a regular guitar. I didn't want it to sound like a bass guitar. I wanted it to sound like guitar, but extend the range and that's exactly what it sounds like. Having a really long string like that adds all these overtones and harmonics and obviously I use the same gauge strings, because you're just taking that scale and making it longer. It's not like you're trying to take a short scale and tuning the note down low by putting on a thick string or something. This is using the same concept as the 25.5-inch scale guitar—just extended downward.

How will that allow you to expand your realm of musical possibilities?

It gives me more range. It just extends the range outside normal for the guitar. That's all I can get from it really. They're very difficult to play, the biggest one is anyway. The first fret is almost two inches wide! [laughs] It's not the easiest thing to get around, but it sounds so good it's worth it. They really have a good sound. I used the B-flat one on "Sphere of Innocence." It goes down low—that whole solo is the baritone guitar. I used the short baritone guitar, that only goes down to C on "Zarabeth." That one is actually quite playable because it's only a few more inches longer than a regular guitar, so you can hear a difference in sound in the bottom of the instrument. But it hasn't reached the point of uncomfortableness to play, so it's a usable instrument.

You've received an incredible amount of critical acclaim throughout your career. How do you reconcile that with the fact that you're not a high-sales or high-profile artist?

I really don't give it too much thought. Ultimately the person who's involved in it is the person that knows. So if someone comes up to me after a bad gig and says "We thought you were great," I really think it's wonderful that people like it! But it doesn't change anything for me. It doesn't make me feel any differently about what I'm doing, because I know what it is I'm trying to do. So, I don't really worry about it too much. But on the other side of it, it can be frustrating sometimes, but it's not more frustrating for me than it is for a lot of people when you're trying to do something that doesn't have an outlet. I don't see it as being anybody's fault but the media really. Most people suffer from that. Unless you're involved in something really mainstream and something that gets played on the radio, you're going to run into that problem. The media is really the controlling factor. If no-one can ever hear anything, there's no way you convince someone. If you've never tasted an orange, you'd never know if you liked one! I see it like that. With the radio stations and record companies, the record companies aren't really interested in signing something for musical reasons—they just want something they can sell a lot of. It's the same across the world. How far do you go to find a really cool, little French restaurant? But you can find a McDonald's on every street corner. It's the same thing.

It's becoming more and more difficult for the little guys to keep going, but I think it's worth it—as long as you do what you believe in. I just couldn't see any other way to do it. I mean it wouldn't feel right to do something else. It's because I started out in music as an accident and a lot of people come into music deliberately, hoping to become a professional musician to make money. I came into it as a hobby—to do something for myself and the fact that I ended up becoming a professional musician was an accident—it wasn't a deliberate attempt. It just happened. All I was doing was the same thing. I never did anything except for a selfish reason to make me happy. It gave me something to do with my life. And that's why I'd rather get a job outside—maybe still involved in music in one way or another, but do another job than play the kind of music that I didn't have any interest in. That would be completely pointless.

Does music pay the bills right now?

It does, but it's really difficult and it seems to keep getting harder and harder. And with a family it becomes more and more difficult.

Restless, your record label, has done practically nothing when it comes to promoting you.

I don't think they're financially able or capable to do anything above a certain level. I know what it's like trying to get them to just come up with the budgets for the albums. It's really, really tough to get anything out of them at all. In fact, the way it is—I dare say it's like this for a lot of people—it's almost impossible for me to make an album for the amount of money they want to pay. I am going to move on and try to get out of it, and find some other label. Even if they're unable to spend the money on promotion, hopefully they could at least pay for the production of a record. I don't earn enough money from other sources with which to make a record on my own, otherwise I would because that would be the ultimate—to finance your own recording and sell it, but I've never achieved that position. So, I'm at the mercy of people like Restless. They've left me alone like Enigma did, so I don't have any creative restrictions. But as far I'm concerned, the budget for this next album is so low that once you've paid the people to play on it, there's no money left! I don't know how they expect me to go to a studio, and I don't really want to do the things I've done before when I started out which was going into a studio after midnight and working until 3:00 am and asking all the other guys to do the same thing. Sure, I'll do it, but I can't ask other people to do that, and I don't think they should have to do that. We work ridiculous hours anyway.

Your next album completes your Restless contract, right?

I'm gonna deliver it as soon as I can, but as to when they put it out, it's up to them. But once I deliver it, that's it for me with Restless. So, that's another reason I was thinking about doing the solo album—something like the Music For Imaginary Films record. A compositional type of record. At the same time, I don't want to just do that if it's not the right time. I've been working on music for a new band album, and I want to do that with the existing band, which is Gary Husband, Steve Hunt and Skuli Skeverson. So, unfortunately, the money that they're paying me isn't enough for me to pay all of these guys to do it even though I know they'll work for nothing, because they've done it before. It's just really hard for me to ask them to do that. So, it's a tough one, shall I do the band album even though the guys have offered to do it free, or shall I do the solo album because that's basically all they're paying for? Either way I'm going to do the best job I can. That's the other thing. It might be great to hold back on the band album and give it to another label.

Last time I spoke to you, I suggested you finish up your Restless contract with a live album so you wouldn't have to waste any new compositions on them. But you said it was too valuable.

Yeah, there was another album as well. Two concepts. One that I had started working on with Gordon Beck—an English jazz piano player. It's an album of old standards. But I was going to hold back on that because it seems, by coincidence, everybody in the whole world is doing an album of standards! [laughs] So we decided to hold off on that one. And it might be something that might help Restless more than they've been helping me. I thought it might be better for me and the musicians involved to not give that one to them, and give it to a Japanese company —someone that's more interested in a specialized product thing.

Why not give Restless an album of atonal compositions?

Because I don't want to end up doing something I don't want to do! [really seriously]

I was kidding.

Whatever it is that I do for Restless has to be something I want to do, so I have to make sure of that fact. Like I said, the only option I really have is to do a solo record which is something I've wanted to do for a long time. It's something I was supposed to do for someone else a long time ago, but it never materialized. It was essentially an album of imaginary film music. No real band effort, just basically solo music. At the same time, I don't want to let the band thing slide and just put out solo records. I really like working with the group too.

What about the possibility of a live album?

Well, we did a live album, but nobody liked it. We recorded it in Japan one year and the general consensus was that it wasn't happening. It'll never come out.

Is that something you'd like to do eventually?

I would like to yeah! Especially with all the bootlegs. In fact, we were thinking about releasing an official bootleg record. Since there are so many bootlegs out there, we figured we might as well give the guys in the band a choice of what nights were okay as opposed to the ones which weren't. So Gary Husband recorded some gigs with his DAT player. Some are pretty good too. I mean they're live—that's the thing I like about them. They're not like the studio-live albums—in other words, you get a supposedly live album that sounds like the worst studio album you've heard in your life. That is definitely something I want to avoid. In fact, the microphone in the back of the room seems to be a good way to go for me. You always get that feeling of a live performance. From now on, I think we're going to carry DAT machines around and record gigs.

The single most frustrating thing for me, is to be in a situation where you can't get a record deal because for whatever reason they won't sign you up, but the same people will take complete advantage of you by bootlegging things and putting out other albums. Sony just did that with that old Velvet Darkness album. They re-released it, but unfortunately, I wasn't able to stop them right away. But they [the lawyers] stopped them eventually and they're not going to make that album anymore, because that whole project was a rip-off in the first place. Sony re-released it and packaged like a new album. So, those kind of things make me go crazy—they make me want to tear my hair out.

You had Velvet Darkness pulled?

It was no good. It was never any good. The way it was recorded, what happened to the musicians, the whole thing. It was a complete disaster. It was terrible at that time and that makes it terrible today. That album was never any good. And it's one thing to say I'll look back to that old I.O.U. album and go "Well, it sounds pretty old, and maybe I don't like it as much as the other stuff." But, the fact was that it was what it is then and it was okay then and everybody accepted that to be the fact at that time. That was not true of Velvet Darkness. That album was never fit to be released. Nobody got to hear anything they did. I never got a tape of anything that was recorded. And we were actually rehearsing in the studio and they were rolling the tape while we were rehearsing on the premise that we'd be able to keep recording and also check things out, but that never happened. At the end of that day, the guy said "Thanks, see ya!" That's why a lot of those tunes don't have any endings—they were rehearsals! That was a complete rip-off.

Are you getting any royalties from any pressings?

No, none. I never saw anything from that. And that's the main reason they got it stopped. They didn't have a contract. They didn't have any publishing. They didn't have the rights to anything. This happens all the time! There are bootlegs all over the place—exactly the same thing.

What's surprising is that Velvet Darkness was released on a major label.

Well, I think they bought the whole CTI catalog from someone. That album's been bootlegged three times, and each time I think "Great, that's the end of that one." But it showed up again—it keeps showing up! But now that it's owned by a big label, they had to produce all the paperwork and they couldn't. So, that's how we got 'em. They had no paperwork for anything to say they could do any of that stuff. But there's no way you can stop them. We had a bootleg video out in Japan. I had a contract that said this could not be used. I actually have a contract and it just came out! The video just came out! It's called Tokyo Dreams. What it was is we knew the cameras were going to be there, but we were supposed to be able to view it first. It was supposed to be completely up to us whether we wanted it used it or not. But of course that was not the truth. They lied and they put it out and it was done in a really sneaky way.

What other unauthorized releases are out there?

Oh, there's tons of them, tons of them. There was one that was a live radio broadcast—it was just a broadcast. It wasn't supposed to be a record! They made that into a record. We did one album as a group with John Stevens, Jeff Kline and Jeff Young and it wasn't very good. But everyone agreed and said "Okay, use those tracks." But what happened is that guy went back again and took everything else we had done that day, including everything nobody wanted, and released that as well. It's almost like you can't leave anything around for anyone man, or they'll use it!

What was that called?

It was called Touching On I think.

And that was released as an album under your name?

Yeah, it started out as a group. But now the same album has my name on top. So, I'd have to say that is the most frustrating thing of all. To be in a position where you're trying to survive and keep some quality and be true to what you believe is good and try to get record deals and then to have people do that kind of stuff is pretty low. Unfortunately, they take advantage of the fact that there are people out there that will buy it and they know we're so small we can't do anything about it to stop them. Nobody can do that to Madonna or Michael Jackson, because the record company would just crucify whoever it was. There would be no way they could ever do that. But when you're in a little Mickey Mouse situation like we are, you don't make enough money to stop people from stealing stuff from you.

I didn't realize the extent you were affected by things like this.

It's my biggest nightmare, yeah.

I'd like to rhyme off a bunch of names from your past and have you tell me the first thing that comes to mind.

Okay.

Soft Machine.

I liked that band. It was a good experience. I liked all of the musicians and I was free to do what I wanted to at that time within that framework. I enjoyed that band a great deal.

U.K. [the band]

Not a nice experience. Nice chaps and everything. But a very miserable experience.

Bruford. [the band]

I enjoyed that. I liked working with Bill [Bruford]. It had some carry-overs from U.K., but if I hadn't had that bee in my bonnet about wanting to do my own thing, I would have probably stayed there.

Tony Williams.

That was great. We had some rough times making it work, but it was a great experience. I enjoyed every minute of it.

Gong.

Gong was good too. It was good fun. I didn't speak French and they were always arguing in French, so I never knew what the hell they were arguing about! But, I think the band had a lot of potential, it was just never reached. I recently listened to Gazeuse! recently, because it was re-released on CD. I thought I was terrible on it, but the band sounded good. It still sounded pretty fresh—especially the drums. Pierre [Moerlen] sounded great—it sounded like it could have been done yesterday. That says a lot about his drumming.

Level 42.

It was good. It was good fun. Good guys. An enjoyable experience.

Here's one you probably didn't expect: Sunship.

What's that?

That's a band you were in with Jamie Muir, Alan Gowen and Laurie Baker—back in 1971.

Oh, is that what it was called?

You didn't know the name?

No! [laughs] Oh yeah! That was good fun too. It was really different than what I was wanting to do at the time. But as far as I remember, it was pretty open. It was very spontaneous music. It was a combination of those people improvising really. It wasn't like anything else.

Did you guys record anything?

Not that I know of. [laughs] Who knows, that might be the next album—the bootleg! [laughs] We might have done a couple of gigs. The most I remember about that band was just rehearsing. Even though I didn't stay in touch with him, I like Alan Gowen a lot. He died from leukemia quite awhile ago. That was really sad. That's thing I remember most unfortunately—that's he's not around anymore.

I'd like to go back to U.K. for a moment. Why was the experience so miserable?

It had a lot of potential. The band was originally Eddie Jobson, Bill [Bruford], and John Wetton without myself. They were looking for a guitarist and I had just started playing with Bill to work on his album Feels Good To Me. And he said "There's this guitar player playing on my album, wanna check him out?" So, they had me over and thought this might work and said "Let's give it a go." And we formed the band and came up with the name. I got on really good with all of them, but what went wrong is that everyone wanted to do something else. I think there were two factions in the band: Bill and myself and Eddie and John. And they were kind of at war really. So, that's what made it miserable—they wanted me to play the same solos every night and it was a completely alien thing for me. I would have probably been able to adapt to that now, but what I wanted to do then was so opposite to that. Whereas now, I could have maybe said "Well I know what I want to do, but this is what this is." I enjoyed making the album, and that was great, but it got to be not too much fun on the road. It was purely a musical question. I don't know, maybe the other guys in the band hate me, but it wasn't that for me—it was just the musical thing. It was "Geez, what am I doing here?" It wasn't that I didn't like the people. I did—I really liked all of those guys, even though they probably don't realize that! [laughs] It was purely and simply a musical problem.

Let's briefly talk about Chad Wackerman's Forty Reasons album.

It's pretty interesting. It's pretty different. [laughs]

Some have suggested that some of your finest playing appears on it.

Really? I don't know about that! [laughs] You know, that whole album is live. I'm never happy with anything I do like that. It's a good album. I enjoy Chad a lot, and I think he did a great job and the ideas he had. But we didn't rehearse enough though. We got into the studio and recorded it live. I think it's a good album from Chad's point of view, but I'm not happy with what I did on it, no.

You mentioned earlier that you're thinking about looking for a job outside of music.

Well, I'm looking into the possibility of what I can do. It comes and goes in waves and it takes about six months for them to go up and down. But I can go through a wave of at least six months where I feel I don't want to deal with it anymore and then I'll come out of it and start to get enthused again. It's not so much about being enthused about what I want to do—I know what I want to do for myself. It just seems to be getting harder and harder to survive doing it. It makes you think about "What else can I do?" I have to think about it. I'm in the process of trying to filter it down in my head about what the possibilities might be. I don't know what I could do. I could get involved with a manufacturer perhaps. Or I could simply go get a job at McDonald's. I'd rather not, but first I'd try to get involved with a manufacturing company, or an electronics company—something that did something that I liked.

Have you ever considered getting involved in some superstar collaborations to increase your profile?

The only main one I would consider doing like that would be someone that's in a similar position to me and somehow when we combine, the record company would take notice. But as soon as the record company gets behind it, then they really want to know they can get some radio. That's a big reason they won't deal with music like my music. It doesn't fall into a category. Radio stations are so small-minded. The jazz stations will say its rock and the rock stations will say its jazz. Instead of picking the track that falls more closely to what their program is and risking it, they won't do that and the record companies know that. And they say, "Well, we can't do anything with it because we'll never be able to sell it." They're only interested in money. The buck rules I'm afraid. It's the new elite—the new aristocracy. All you have to have is money.

What about getting involved with a full-blown band again?

I wouldn't mind that at all. As long as it doesn't diminish the fact that I can go out and tour with my own band and make my own music. I would just be a member of someone else's band. That would be fine. I enjoy playing other people's music—like when I worked with Level 42. That was pop music, but I enjoyed it because I knew what it is, and for what it is, it's really good.

You mentioned you're interested in doing film work. Have you ever been approached by a director or anyone else?

I was approached by individuals who have been sort of connected and a guy from an agency who's a fan and liked my music, who thought it would be acceptable for film music. It's the same thing—it's like when you go to the movies and see who does the music. Some guys do wonderful things and then there are guys who do everything and aren't so good. It's obviously who you know. Miami Vice is a perfect example of that. Whoever it was that got Jan Hammer that gig—he's the guy that deserves the medal! What happened was that when Jan Hammer came into it, it was because of his talent. He was able to do all of that stuff and it was really different. The music he wrote for that program was really different than other programs. But then what happens of course is, you realize how fickle it is. Next thing you know, there's a Miami Vice clone program where there's someone trying to do the music like Jan Hammer did. What they should have realized was what made that program great was the music—someone gave that guy a chance to do something original. It was his own thing. Instead of turning to other guys and going "Can you do the same thing Jan Hammer did?" they should say "Let's give the guy the freedom to do his own thing!" And that's what makes these things special. And if they do know that, they're too afraid of it to risk it, and it's laughable. I think it's hilarious that they're so afraid to take a chance! It's really funny.

What are your impressions of the current rock and pop scenes?

The only rock I really listen to is what I listen to on the radio. It seems to be getting more and more circus-oriented. It sounds like a three-headed snake or something. It's got too much hydra content. I can't hear the music in it somehow.

What about current fusion trends? For instance, GRP output is enormously popular at the moment.

Fusion? Well, that's a perfectly good word, but when I think of fusion, I always think about the wrong thing. When someone says fusion, I think of what you hear in elevators now. [laughs] It used to be muzak, but now it's fuzak. GRP seems to be really commercial for me. It's really highly polished. The guys are really great players. I'm not knocking it, but it doesn't seem to be 100 percent there—the creative aspect of it.

[His kids are yelling in the background]

They're driving me nuts! Even with my finger in my ear, the only thing I can hear are the screaming kids! [laughs]

Would you like to see your kids involved in music?

If they want to be. I'm not encouraging any of them really. I'm not trying to keep them away from it either. I'm not going to push them one way or the other. Obviously, if I see a spark and it looks like they want to do something I'll help them. I'm not going to push them.

How old are your kids?

13, 11 and 7.

Do they know who you are in contemporary music circles?

Vaguely. [laughs]

Do they like your music?

No, I don't think they like it very much. Every time I bring a mix home to listen to they go "Oh, turn that off Dad!" So, I don't think they do. The other day, a friend of mine came around with his son who plays guitar. He's 13 and it was quite fascinating for my kids because it turns out he's a real fan. So, when my son Sam asked him "Who do you like?" and he said "I like your dad!" that was really strange. That was a first. It was pretty wild.